Mail sent to Arkranthi people- Anil Bokil, Atul Deshmukh, Sudhir Rao etc regarding the flaws of transaction tax and how it is anti-swadeshi by recallists and how the AK people evade questions in their replies.
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: kmoksha rishi <kmoksha@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: Arthakranti Prathishtan
To: sanjay rana <sanjay.rana5615@gmail.com>, sumit verma <sumit.bst87@gmail.com>
Cc: Rahul Mehta <MehtaRahulC@yahoo.com>, adeshara <adeshara@gmail.com>
Dear Sir,
Thanks for your reply.
1) Promise to pay account-
You had written about it -"
"Firstly, there is nothing like " Promise to Pay" Account in Banks.
Promise to pay can be in our internal books of accounts - i.e. debtors and creditors as a qualified C.A. you this better than me. "
Would like to requote what we have written before-
"Promise-to-pay is new type of account that I will provide my bank. Basically each person wil have two types of account - savings account and promise-to-pay account."
So, considering this please answer this question-
"In Arthkranti proposal, does a promise to pay fetch Transaction Tax? If yes, then please provide the DRAFT of the law which says which classifies promise to pay as payment.
If not, then tax collection will be too low ... . How?
I will open a bank and ask people to put deposit in savings. I will open two accounts --- actual savings and promise-to-pay. The promise-to-pay will also have promised-to-receive entries. So when X has to pay Rs 1000 to Rs Y, he will just make promise-to-pay transaction in my bank. So I will add -1000 in account of X and 1000 in account of Y. So all payments will be promise-to-pay.
And since this was promise-to-pay and not actual payment, no TT will apply.'
Now I will ensure that negative balance in promise-to-pay account of A does not exceed balance in his savings account and hence there will never be a default.
Now on 1-jan or some fixed date, I will do all settlements. if A's promise-to-pay balance is positive it will be added to savings account and if negative, it will be subtracted from savings account. So now transaction tax will apply only at this point.
So effectively, if TT is 2% it will become 2% of (Money received in one year - Money paid in one year) or (Money paid in one year - Money received in one year) , whichever is positive. It will not be not 2% of all money paid plus 2% of all money received.
All in all TT will be 2% if positive difference between opening balance on Jan-1"
2) Transaction tax will kill small scale industries-
We had asked -
"As of today , there is no tax on unprocessed food items in India. So, after transaction tax comes, food items will be 1-20% costlier depending on the number of points in the supply chain if the TT is 1% per point and will be 2-40% if TT is 2% per point. So, as it is , it seems food items will be costilier when transaction tax comes and items made in small scale will be more costlier than in large factories. The small scale food industries will be out of business , in competing with large factories. Since the small scale factories are mostly swadeshi, this proposal seems anti-swadeshi.
Transaction tax of 2% will become sales tax of 20% to 50%. eg consider following chain.
Farmer sells Wheat of Rs 1000 to wholesaler in mandi
wholesaler sells wheat of Rs 1050 to retailer
retailer sells wheat of Rs 1100 to Atta maker
Atta maker sells Rs 1150 of Atta to bakery
Bakery sells Rs 1200 of bread to wholesaler
Wholesaler sells Rs 1250 of bread to retailer
Retailer sells Rs 1300 of bread to end user
Now if 2% transaction tax is added at each level, final tax at end user will be about 12% to 14%/. Not that I mind, such tax will create a chain of "transactions without bills". So it is lose-lose situation.
Arthkrati proposal of transaction tax favors big companies at the cost of small. eg say 5 people do business wheat -> mandi -> wholesaler -> retailer -> bakeri -> retail bread shop -> customer. Then tax is about 12% of wheat price as there are 6 levels. Now if a big company buys wheat and directly sells to end customer, tax is only 2%.
I dont oppose big companies, but tax laws shouldnt favior big at the cost of small.
The small companies have to pay more taxes comparatively to the big companies. This will lead them to go out of business. And since most small companies are swadeshi. So, arthkranti proposal of transaction tax is anti-swadeshi.
So the transaction tax benefits big corporations more , and adversely effects small companies !! In fact, if whole economy comes under one company, transaction tax except on final retail sale will be nearly zero because all transactions except final retail sale are all internal transfers only !! If a tax law favors big over small/middle, then it will lead to inefficient consolidation. And all small-middle companies will be forced to sell their business to giant companies for pittance. And giant will grow bigger not because it is more efficient in terms of productivity, but it has to pay less taxes than two-more smaller companies doing same activities.
You had replied-"Secondly, there is no such situation as 'No tax on unprocessed food.' Only agri-income is not taxable at present. Who says bakery has not to pay Tax. Modern Bakery does not pay various types of taxes incl. Income Tax? Who says wholesaler has not to pay tax. Big wholesale houses, incl. large grocery shops do not pay any tax ? These are only presumption, devoid of any scintific approach. By taking some small amount transactions in an example, one is attempting to draw wrong conclusions. And small transactions as described in the example can always be continued as at present without any tax, by carrying out business in cash. It is not illegal. It is not evading tax, it is only tax planning - avoiding tax. "
The income tax as of today applies equally for the small scale and large scale industries while the transaction tax will be more for small scale industries in comparison to the large scale industries.
Agri- products or unprocessed foods like wheat, rice , etc are tax free and will become costlier after TT comes.
Please find the list of VAT exempt items in this link-
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:ytRwL2qWumcJ:tripurataxes.nic.in/ScheduleofVAT.pdf+list+of+items+under+VAT+in+india&hl=en&gl=in&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgtjEqDbCiOiOndL-89B32CWXu7U0nx84dqCGW2jTvfMdF10DbmHGRCFZxy8Hnh7eBCJKV4EdvCP4pcC0tXQEflGZv6dkNb3vB9u8mvr3p05vluk5o1pSuZ_HH0Pp0H0E-2mUf-&sig=AHIEtbQiGa9QkbJtdeXD5xspd8r3YF2Niw
3) TT will kill short-term borrowings or lead to collapse of economy-Regarding short term borrowings, as you had said that the BTT will be on each and every transaction, this will kill the short term borrowings and lead to collapse of economy.
So,There is a whole area called "over night borrowings" where Rs 1 cr is borrowed for 1-2 days and returned with interest of mere Rs 2000 to Rs 3000 !! Paying even 0.1% on whole transaction will just kill whole business.
Even is transaction tax is 0.5%, then also, the transaction tax on Rs 1 cr borrowed and returned Rs 1 cr + Rs 3000 interest will be Rs 10000 , which will kill all short term borrowing business. Industry today lives on short term borrowing. It is not just dishonest industrialists, even honest ones have to borrow now and then.
4) Recall of large notes and Transaction tax will not reduce black economy or reduce corruption-You had said -
" But if 90% of corruption is taking place with white money ( as is said in the 'Doubts'.) then those transactions are traceable, they can be opened, looked into, and if found of such nature, they can always be questioned. This is a job of 'investing agencies under Government control'. With bill or without bill is not a poinbt of reference in post BTT era. It is a bank transaction. Once a transaction, there will be a tax. If you do not want to pay tax, do a LEGAL transaction - with ot without bill, in cash. If one wants to exchange gold etc. against cash, no problem what so ever, so long as both parties agree to it. If both the transacting parties have faith in each other AND they believe that gold being exchanged is of that purity ( and not adulterated ) transaction can take place - but how many ? ALL transacting parties will not believe in ALL opposite parties. This is one of the reasons that paper currency came into existence. And if Dollar is accdeptable to ALL and in cash and after verifying its genuinity, no problem. Even in America, where faith in Dollar is already lost, there is alternate currency being exchanged by name ' Bankeshare ' and it is absolutely legal. Even in America there are places where Dollar is being rejected, ( I have faced this situation) and they accept only Bankeshare ( OR Euro as a special case ).So if that face-lost Dollar is acceptable in India, let it be tried - it is bound to fail. Let us not take situations in Metropolitan cities alone, let us talk of rural and semi-urban areas too, whether, there other currencies can be in use? . "
That currency which is stronger-dollar or euro etc. will be used, also gold ,silver can be used. And semi-urban areas and rural areas have more items to trade with. If you go there, they still carry out moneyless transactions. The farmer often gives part of his produce for services.
90% of the corruption is taking with white money. It is traceable but not accountable by the citizens. Your claim that recall of large notes and TT alone can reduce 99% of corruption is incorrect.
I will give some examples,please tell how recall of large notes coupled with BTT or government as of today can stop that ?
a)Consider Supreme Court judges. They never touch a paise, forget Rs 1000 note. An SCj will subtley tell you name of a lawyer who would be his close friend or some distant r...elative. And he will communicate amount to you. You pay CHEQUE of that amount to that SCj's friend or relative lawyer and next day you get the judgment. Thios is how over 90% of corruption has been going on in India since 1990. How will reducing Rs 1000 notes have any impact?
b) Another way is take it as a consulting fee in the name of relative. eg many Industrial Houses hire Bank Directors' relatives as lawyers or consultants. When bank directors deliver loans, the relative gets a fat consulting fee. Why Director? Chidambaran's wife has been a lawyer for many firms. In such cases, how do you prove that decision maker took a bribe to begin with?
c) How DIG-SCj nexus works. All SCjs have relative lawyers who need favor from police to weaken the case. So DIG will sell out, help a lawyer of SCj and SCj will do favor to DIG. Also, many relatives of SCjs are builders, industrialists etc who may be implicated in real or fake criminal cases, and DIG can help them out.
These and many more ways are mentioned in this link-
https://www.facebook.com/groups/rrgindia/doc/181369795245803/
"
From: kmoksha rishi <kmoksha@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: Arthakranti Prathishtan
To: sanjay rana <sanjay.rana5615@gmail.com>, sumit verma <sumit.bst87@gmail.com>
Cc: Rahul Mehta <MehtaRahulC@yahoo.com>, adeshara <adeshara@gmail.com>
Dear Sir,
Thanks for your reply.
1) Promise to pay account-
You had written about it -"
"Firstly, there is nothing like " Promise to Pay" Account in Banks.
Promise to pay can be in our internal books of accounts - i.e. debtors and creditors as a qualified C.A. you this better than me. "
"Promise-to-pay is new type of account that I will provide my bank. Basically each person wil have two types of account - savings account and promise-to-pay account."
So, considering this please answer this question-
"In Arthkranti proposal, does a promise to pay fetch Transaction Tax? If yes, then please provide the DRAFT of the law which says which classifies promise to pay as payment.
If not, then tax collection will be too low ... . How?
I will open a bank and ask people to put deposit in savings. I will open two accounts --- actual savings and promise-to-pay. The promise-to-pay will also have promised-to-receive entries. So when X has to pay Rs 1000 to Rs Y, he will just make promise-to-pay transaction in my bank. So I will add -1000 in account of X and 1000 in account of Y. So all payments will be promise-to-pay.
And since this was promise-to-pay and not actual payment, no TT will apply.'
Now I will ensure that negative balance in promise-to-pay account of A does not exceed balance in his savings account and hence there will never be a default.
Now on 1-jan or some fixed date, I will do all settlements. if A's promise-to-pay balance is positive it will be added to savings account and if negative, it will be subtracted from savings account. So now transaction tax will apply only at this point.
So effectively, if TT is 2% it will become 2% of (Money received in one year - Money paid in one year) or (Money paid in one year - Money received in one year) , whichever is positive. It will not be not 2% of all money paid plus 2% of all money received.
All in all TT will be 2% if positive difference between opening balance on Jan-1"
2) Transaction tax will kill small scale industries-
We had asked -
"As of today , there is no tax on unprocessed food items in India. So, after transaction tax comes, food items will be 1-20% costlier depending on the number of points in the supply chain if the TT is 1% per point and will be 2-40% if TT is 2% per point. So, as it is , it seems food items will be costilier when transaction tax comes and items made in small scale will be more costlier than in large factories. The small scale food industries will be out of business , in competing with large factories. Since the small scale factories are mostly swadeshi, this proposal seems anti-swadeshi.
Transaction tax of 2% will become sales tax of 20% to 50%. eg consider following chain.
Farmer sells Wheat of Rs 1000 to wholesaler in mandi
wholesaler sells wheat of Rs 1050 to retailer
retailer sells wheat of Rs 1100 to Atta maker
Atta maker sells Rs 1150 of Atta to bakery
Bakery sells Rs 1200 of bread to wholesaler
Wholesaler sells Rs 1250 of bread to retailer
Retailer sells Rs 1300 of bread to end user
Now if 2% transaction tax is added at each level, final tax at end user will be about 12% to 14%/. Not that I mind, such tax will create a chain of "transactions without bills". So it is lose-lose situation.
Arthkrati proposal of transaction tax favors big companies at the cost of small. eg say 5 people do business wheat -> mandi -> wholesaler -> retailer -> bakeri -> retail bread shop -> customer. Then tax is about 12% of wheat price as there are 6 levels. Now if a big company buys wheat and directly sells to end customer, tax is only 2%.
I dont oppose big companies, but tax laws shouldnt favior big at the cost of small.
The small companies have to pay more taxes comparatively to the big companies. This will lead them to go out of business. And since most small companies are swadeshi. So, arthkranti proposal of transaction tax is anti-swadeshi.
So the transaction tax benefits big corporations more , and adversely effects small companies !! In fact, if whole economy comes under one company, transaction tax except on final retail sale will be nearly zero because all transactions except final retail sale are all internal transfers only !! If a tax law favors big over small/middle, then it will lead to inefficient consolidation. And all small-middle companies will be forced to sell their business to giant companies for pittance. And giant will grow bigger not because it is more efficient in terms of productivity, but it has to pay less taxes than two-more smaller companies doing same activities.
You had replied-"Secondly, there is no such situation as 'No tax on unprocessed food.' Only agri-income is not taxable at present. Who says bakery has not to pay Tax. Modern Bakery does not pay various types of taxes incl. Income Tax? Who says wholesaler has not to pay tax. Big wholesale houses, incl. large grocery shops do not pay any tax ? These are only presumption, devoid of any scintific approach. By taking some small amount transactions in an example, one is attempting to draw wrong conclusions. And small transactions as described in the example can always be continued as at present without any tax, by carrying out business in cash. It is not illegal. It is not evading tax, it is only tax planning - avoiding tax. "
The income tax as of today applies equally for the small scale and large scale industries while the transaction tax will be more for small scale industries in comparison to the large scale industries.
Agri- products or unprocessed foods like wheat, rice , etc are tax free and will become costlier after TT comes.
Please find the list of VAT exempt items in this link-
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:ytRwL2qWumcJ:tripurataxes.nic.in/ScheduleofVAT.pdf+list+of+items+under+VAT+in+india&hl=en&gl=in&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgtjEqDbCiOiOndL-89B32CWXu7U0nx84dqCGW2jTvfMdF10DbmHGRCFZxy8Hnh7eBCJKV4EdvCP4pcC0tXQEflGZv6dkNb3vB9u8mvr3p05vluk5o1pSuZ_HH0Pp0H0E-2mUf-&sig=AHIEtbQiGa9QkbJtdeXD5xspd8r3YF2Niw
3) TT will kill short-term borrowings or lead to collapse of economy-Regarding short term borrowings, as you had said that the BTT will be on each and every transaction, this will kill the short term borrowings and lead to collapse of economy.
So,There is a whole area called "over night borrowings" where Rs 1 cr is borrowed for 1-2 days and returned with interest of mere Rs 2000 to Rs 3000 !! Paying even 0.1% on whole transaction will just kill whole business.
Even is transaction tax is 0.5%, then also, the transaction tax on Rs 1 cr borrowed and returned Rs 1 cr + Rs 3000 interest will be Rs 10000 , which will kill all short term borrowing business. Industry today lives on short term borrowing. It is not just dishonest industrialists, even honest ones have to borrow now and then.
4) Recall of large notes and Transaction tax will not reduce black economy or reduce corruption-You had said -
" But if 90% of corruption is taking place with white money ( as is said in the 'Doubts'.) then those transactions are traceable, they can be opened, looked into, and if found of such nature, they can always be questioned. This is a job of 'investing agencies under Government control'. With bill or without bill is not a poinbt of reference in post BTT era. It is a bank transaction. Once a transaction, there will be a tax. If you do not want to pay tax, do a LEGAL transaction - with ot without bill, in cash. If one wants to exchange gold etc. against cash, no problem what so ever, so long as both parties agree to it. If both the transacting parties have faith in each other AND they believe that gold being exchanged is of that purity ( and not adulterated ) transaction can take place - but how many ? ALL transacting parties will not believe in ALL opposite parties. This is one of the reasons that paper currency came into existence. And if Dollar is accdeptable to ALL and in cash and after verifying its genuinity, no problem. Even in America, where faith in Dollar is already lost, there is alternate currency being exchanged by name ' Bankeshare ' and it is absolutely legal. Even in America there are places where Dollar is being rejected, ( I have faced this situation) and they accept only Bankeshare ( OR Euro as a special case ).So if that face-lost Dollar is acceptable in India, let it be tried - it is bound to fail. Let us not take situations in Metropolitan cities alone, let us talk of rural and semi-urban areas too, whether, there other currencies can be in use? . "
That currency which is stronger-dollar or euro etc. will be used, also gold ,silver can be used. And semi-urban areas and rural areas have more items to trade with. If you go there, they still carry out moneyless transactions. The farmer often gives part of his produce for services.
90% of the corruption is taking with white money. It is traceable but not accountable by the citizens. Your claim that recall of large notes and TT alone can reduce 99% of corruption is incorrect.
I will give some examples,please tell how recall of large notes coupled with BTT or government as of today can stop that ?
a)Consider Supreme Court judges. They never touch a paise, forget Rs 1000 note. An SCj will subtley tell you name of a lawyer who would be his close friend or some distant r...elative. And he will communicate amount to you. You pay CHEQUE of that amount to that SCj's friend or relative lawyer and next day you get the judgment. Thios is how over 90% of corruption has been going on in India since 1990. How will reducing Rs 1000 notes have any impact?
b) Another way is take it as a consulting fee in the name of relative. eg many Industrial Houses hire Bank Directors' relatives as lawyers or consultants. When bank directors deliver loans, the relative gets a fat consulting fee. Why Director? Chidambaran's wife has been a lawyer for many firms. In such cases, how do you prove that decision maker took a bribe to begin with?
c) How DIG-SCj nexus works. All SCjs have relative lawyers who need favor from police to weaken the case. So DIG will sell out, help a lawyer of SCj and SCj will do favor to DIG. Also, many relatives of SCjs are builders, industrialists etc who may be implicated in real or fake criminal cases, and DIG can help them out.
These and many more ways are mentioned in this link-
https://www.facebook.com/groups/rrgindia/doc/181369795245803/
"
If there are any more queries, we are willing to attend to them. However, such vast subject can not be replied to thru exchange of mails.
You may consider our presentation to your group ( as mail are coming from different individuals ). What we request for is only reimbursement of out of pocket expenses such as air-fare, staying arrangements etc. whereever the presentation will be arranged. Alternatively, you may come to Pune and we shall answer all your doubts.
"
Since this is a proposal meant for all the country, large number of people as possible should be able to take part in the debate. So, please come on a public platform like Forum (www.forum.righttorecall.info) or skype (audio recordings of the skype discussion can be distributed to others for their comment ).You may consider our presentation to your group ( as mail are coming from different individuals ). What we request for is only reimbursement of out of pocket expenses such as air-fare, staying arrangements etc. whereever the presentation will be arranged. Alternatively, you may come to Pune and we shall answer all your doubts.
"
On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 10:59 AM, sanjay rana <sanjay.rana5615@gmail.com> wrote:
--
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Sudhir Rao <sudhir.sr.rao@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 8:39 AM
Subject: Arthakranti Prathishtan
To: sanjay.rana5615@gmail.com
Cc: Anil Bokil <anilbokil@gmail.com>, Narendra Khot <nvkhot@gmail.com>, kmoksha@gmail.com, sumit verma <sumit.bst87@gmail.com>, atul deshmukh <atulmd13@gmail.com>
A mail sent by you to Shri Anil Bokil is being replied to as under :
Absolutely similar mail - word to word - was received from Shri Sumit Varma and it has been replied to yesterday. The reply is reproduced below "
QUOTE :
Firstly, there is nothing like " Promise to Pay" Account in Banks.
Promise to pay can be in our internal books of accounts - i.e. debtors and creditors as a qualified C.A. you this better than me.
If some one is satisfaied with a position as ' Creditor ' for one year, it is fine. It is not a bank transaction, so there is no question of BTT. If one is happy. let him not settle accounts for many years, why only one ?
Secondly, there is no such situation as 'No tax on unprocessed food.' Only agri-income is not taxable at present. Who says bakery has not to pay Tax. Modern Bakery does not pay various types of taxes incl. Income Tax? Who says wholesaler has not to pay tax. Big wholesale houses, incl. large grocery shops do not pay any tax ? These are only presumption, devoid of any scintific approach. By taking some small amount transactions in an example, one is attempting to draw wrong conclusions. And small transactions as described in the example can always be continued as at present without any tax, by carrying out business in cash. It is not illegal. It is not evading tax, it is only tax planning - avoiding tax.
The proposed tax system does not take cognisance of the motive for which bank transaction is carried out. Banks do not recognise the nature of transaction behind any transaction - today and post BTT era too. So why are such questions come to mind whether tax will be on Rs 1 Cr OR on interest of Rs 1 L OR on Rs 1.01 Cr ? And where this Rs 2 crs comimng in ? BTT is on a transaction. Once you borrow Rs 1 Cr and have a bank transaction, it will be taxed there and there only. Once you repay principle amout and interest through a bank, tax will be deducted on both, there and there only. There can not be any carry over OR TDS at a later date. If you do not want to pay tax, you have an alternative to carry on - in cash. Only you will not get legal protection. No one stops anybody to walk on roads without insurance policy, but if any untowards happens, in such an eventuality question of insurance claim does not arise. The clarification applies to 'Jewelarry' example too. It is necessary to grasp that with abolition of various taxes, tax burden for Common Man is going down substantially, and paying tax on such transactions will not be burden-some.
As regards various links sent to verify corruption by bank transactions, etc. etc, they are attempted but THEY DO NOT OPEN. So I can not reply. Kindly excuse me for the same, for, it is not my fault. But if 90% of corruption is taking place with white money ( as is said in the 'Doubts'.) then those transactions are traceable, they can be opened, looked into, and if found of such nature, they can always be questioned. This is a job of 'investing agencies under Government control'. With bill or without bill is not a poinbt of reference in post BTT era. It is a bank transaction. Once a transaction, there will be a tax. If you do not want to pay tax, do a LEGAL transaction - with ot without bill, in cash. If one wants to exchange gold etc. against cash, no problem what so ever, so long as both parties agree to it. If both the transacting parties have faith in each other AND they believe that gold being exchanged is of that purity ( and not adulterated ) transaction can take place - but how many ? ALL transacting parties will not believe in ALL opposite parties. This is one of the reasons that paper currency came into existence. And if Dollar is accdeptable to ALL and in cash and after verifying its genuinity, no problem. Even in America, where faith in Dollar is already lost, there is alternate currency being exchanged by name ' Bankeshare ' and it is absolutely legal. Even in America there are places where Dollar is being rejected, ( I have faced this situation) and they accept only Bankeshare ( OR Euro as a special case ).So if that face-lost Dollar is acceptable in India, let it be tried - it is bound to fail. Let us not take situations in Metropolitan cities alone, let us talk of rural and semi-urban areas too, whether, there other currencies can be in use? .
Righttorecall is one movement. ARTHAKRANTI is one movement. One movement ( in fact which is addressing very limited areas ) doubting utility of other movement without going through it in totality and its merits - is it fair ?
Mind is like a parachute, it works only when opened. So we need to open our mind, analyses sitiutions in a realistic manner before jumping to any unrealistic conclusions.
This reply may be forwarded to whosoever, you desire to.
UNQUOTE
If there are any more queries, we are willing to attend to them. However, such vast subject can not be replied to thru exchange of mails.
You may consider our presentation to your group ( as mail are coming from different individuals ). What we request for is only reimbursement of out of pocket expenses such as air-fare, staying arrangements etc. whereever the presentation will be arranged. Alternatively, you may come to Pune and we shall answer all your doubts.
Hope you are satisfied with our proposal.
= Sudhir Rao =
ARTHAKRANTI PRATISHTAN.
www.arthakranti.org.
Regards,
Sanjay Rana
HImachal Pradesh
http://www.krantikarideshsevak.blogspot.com/
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